I was wondering, what do you find fun in protein folding? What parts of it are enjoyable for you, what kind of puzzles are fun or rewarding to solve?
And conversely, which parts are not fun? Which are boring, and which are frustrating?
I figure that this might help guide the Foldit team's decisions on which suggestions would be most important to implement. It's about what would make the most enjoyable experience for players, both newcomers and veteran folders.
My particular interest is in making the game better for newcomers. It seems to me that though the intro puzzles currently present the skills required for folding, they don't really let players experience what is fun about folding. And that's a big problem. Who would want to go on to fold if they don't see what's fun about it?
So, what do you find fun about folding?
That is a question which needs several answers, I think….
first, why do I like folding?
- competition, and being able to keep track of other people's score real time is a big benefit.
- I just want to know how things work…there's lots to learn, and the time I spend (especially in the beginning) is rewarded by better folding abilities.
- getting lucky with a rebuilt or something can totally lift my spirits, but on the other hand I like the fact that the same bunch of people end up top every time…it tells me it's not a "game of luck" and there's still a lot more to learn.
- it's something you can come back to, or you could even surf the net while folding, flipping back and forth.
- the more time you spend on them, the more points you get, it never gets old.
- and the fact that you cannot "solve" a puzzle….I heard so many people use that word, and in the beginning it made me feel like I was missing something, but the fact that there's no "solving" makes it interesting to me in the first place.
- probably a lot more reasons
- I'm crazy
What is no fun / boring?
- hmmm, probably the manual backbone walks
- not so much else to me, but I'm still starting out and am still learning
How could the game be made better for newcomers?
- I think the lack of proper guiding is a big issue.
When i first started out, I was totally confused for days on end….to me that made it more interesting (as I enjoy working out how stuff works), but to many many others it's probably a fair reason to leave and spend their time elsewere.
Yes, there is a wiki…but I couldn't get hold of a good start when i first scanned through it…so many new words, and how do you look up something when you don't know the name of the thing you're looking for?
The intro puzzles helped A LOT, but I still feel there should be some written guide in addition to the wiki maybe?
disclaimer: the statements made are my personal views today, but do not necessarily reflect my views when I'm sober. :P
Thanks for the detailed reply, Nicky666, it's very helpful to me to see what you think.
I definitely agree about the lack of proper guiding for newcomers. So for you, figuring stuff out and learning, and getting points and competing are the main things that you enjoy about folding?
I'm curious what your folding process is, as I haven't really been able to watch people playing except in the intro levels. What are you doing, moment-to-moment, and what are you thinking about? Are there certain parts of it that are more fun than others?
Thanks again, everyone. :)
[Axcho quote] I definitely agree about the lack of proper guiding for newcomers. So
for you, figuring stuff out and learning, and getting points and
competing are the main things that you enjoy about folding?[/Axcho quote]
Ok, sober now (lol)…I left out one biggie:
The fact that this whole folding has a purpose is why I allow myself to spend so much time on it.
The figuring stuff out and learning, and getting points and
competing is why I keep wanting to spend so much time on it.
[Axcho quote] I'm curious what your folding process is, as I haven't really been able
to watch people playing except in the intro levels. What are you doing,
moment-to-moment, and what are you thinking about? Are there certain
parts of it that are more fun than others?[/Axcho quote]
I don't have a very rigid folding process, but it goes something like this:
- wiggle/shake - shake/wiggle -start with the best one (thinking: whoohoo, new puzzle!)
- pulling it around (thinking: is that all?), nudging some more (thinking: really?), nudging and finding points (thinking:yay, cookies!)
- sidechain flipping
- rebuilding
- sometimes a bit of banding or twisting
- repeating step 2 to 5 until I get bored (thinking: I'm bored)
- doing some team-work (thinking: cool, now I'm not bored)
- going back to my solo to repeat steps 2 to 5 a couple of times more (thinking: how come others squeezed 100's of points more out of this than I did?)
- doing a backbone walk (thinking: too early, I'm SO going to regret this).
- repeat steps 2 to 5 a couple of times more (thinking: yeah, I shouldn't have done that early backbone walk)
- doing some team-work (thinking: cookies)
- and towards the end I probably do a lot more of rebuilding, crossing my fingers I hit a good spot…when I do I tend to directly wiggle everything out of a good rebuilt at this point (nudging, wiggling and walking that specific part of the backbone).
- walking the backbone (thinking: chocolate chip cookies)
that's about it :)
I'm not sure if there are certain parts I enjoy more than others…whatever brings points is good enough for me, heheh. What I do know is that the ability to work on a group solution, and the ingame chat are important things to avoid any part where i might get bored..there's always something else to do.
Thanks, that helps a lot! :)
It seems to me that the fun of Foldit is not so much in finding the "right answer" as it is about finding all the little places where you can get a few more points. It's more like Minesweeper (or Solitaire?) than a jigsaw puzzle.
Right now each of the intro puzzles is designed like a "right answer" puzzle (though not very fun ones, at that) but really, they should be more about collecting points by doing stuff. Kind of like a Mario level where you're going around, collecting coins and avoiding obstacles, except it's a protein…
Thoughts?
I don't think any of those examples do justice to how folding works. Even the Mario level (which comes closest probably), is something you can "beat" with a high score.
One of the fun things when it comes to folding is the fact that you cannot solve it….of course, you could make the exact replica of the real protein, which would theoretically mean you've maximized the score, BUT even when you do, there's no pop-up screen telling you "solved" it, is there?
If you want new thoughts about how to incorporate that part of the folding process into the tutorial puzzles, here's my take on it:
1.
the tutorial puzzles gradually introduce the available tools, I do think new folders need that, so don't change that part!
What could be changed is the fact that you automatically "finish" a level once you reach a certain number of points.
It should be easy to change that to "opening" the option to go to a next level once you reach a certain number of points.
New folders can then choose to give the puzzle a couple more nudges and wiggles to reach a higher score if they wish.
2.
If the first idea is a valid option, it might be fun to keep track of the scores in the tutorial levels…competition is a big part of folding, so why not start and show that in the tutorial levels as well? To keep it fun for newcomers, you could choose to clear those scores every first of the month maybe, or every week? that way reaching the top of the list will stay a goal anyone could reach if they work hard enough for it.
I think those are my biggest ideas, which should be easy enough to change? (speaking with little knowledge when it comes to programming skills….it's just my guess as those options are already available in foldit).
Other ideas (and probably ideas that need a bit more work?) are these:
- there's a puzzle in the tutorial that only needs a wiggle to reach the needed score, which doesn't need the skill/tool it is supposed to explain. (can't name it right now, but if you need me to point it out, just say the word)…that would be a good one to change.
- maybe add a puzzle (toward the end) that points out successive ways to reach the needed points…start with wiggle/twist…pulling…twisting…rebuilding a hot spot….all in one tutorial puzzle, reflecting the actual folding process, but with a little guidance. In this puzzle, the (folding strategies in the) wiki could also be pointed out.
Those are great ideas, thanks Nicky666! I totally agree about the first idea, and I think the second idea would make sense as well.
What I'd really like to do is something like World of Goo, where the extra points you get beyond the level requirement (extra goo balls) go to this big pool of points (goo balls) that you can use as resources for a cool competitive metagame (build the highest tower). I'm not sure what the metagame would look like for Foldit though… Protein design? :p
maybe…..are you solely thinking about the tutorial puzzles still?
I think I kiiiinda get what you mean, but to me the actual folding is a fun game on its own merit, so the only changes I'd suggest for the tutorial levels would be to let new folders grab the concept, possibilities and tools faster (thus far, only the tools are covered I think), and show them every aspect of folding in a nutshell.
By the way, I didn't think the tutorial puzzles were boring at all when I came to this place (only a couple of months ago, so i still remember vividly, haha). My only problem was that even after the tutorial levels, I still felt like I had no idea what i was doing. A better guide (or a little nudge to point out relevant sections in the wiki) would've been welcome, whereas an additional game (fun as it may be) would've confused me even more.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just saying I don't think I fully understand what you want to do (or what you want to achieve by it).
could you clarify a bit further? (hahaha, I could've just asked that, but I obviously like to talk…a lot!!! :P )
Yes, just the tutorial puzzles.
The metagame isn't that important. I'm thinking what would be better, for now, would be to make an achievement for each level, that you can earn by filling certain difficult requirements. So after you get through the levels, you might go back to unlock the challenge achievements.
What would have been a "A better guide" for you?
