In light of the ability for some groups and players to acquire detailed information on puzzle content that others don't have easy access to, for instance a non-technical user or child, it would be beneficial to all to have a hot link to specifically related proteins within the PDB website or similar included in each puzzle descriptions. This would make the playing field more level, as well as assist in educating new and old players alike.
Of course the goal here is to advance the science, so whether one is a scripting genius, bio chem major, or conversely, not, one should be able to have the same basic informatic content available to assist in the folding process.
What sort of information is used from the PDB website? Wouldn't that be too technical anyway?
No. Perhaps you should ask the players who use it what advantage it gives them? (Hint - they are probably at or near the top of the leaderboards)
Axcho,
People are using the PDB to identify and duplicate the structure's of proteins used in the game. If people are doing so, by using information not easily obtainable by the average user, then they are at an advantage by using the data that was clearly obfuscated to most by the developers. So if programmer/players are getting the info, shouldn't all users have it? It would be easy enough to ad a PDB id to the puzzle title and a note in the faq about the PDB website .Transparency is all I'm suggesting.
regards,
Andrew
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BTW, it is clearly not *necessary to have that data in order to rank high ( i rarely use it because it would give me what I believe at this juncture is an unfair advantage over the normal player) and yet I still manage to stay in the top ten, and often in the top five, but it is also clear that at least some of the other players and both top groups require it in order to achieve high ranks, and it is well known amongst veteran players that they are doing so in order to leverage an advantage over those who can see the path without a crutch or paint by numbers guide or might benefit from that same crutch. Fair is fair..Unfair isn't.
Admittedly, I'm not sure what they're going to do with totally unknown proteins, if we should start encountering them,as they are currently playing a game of rote replication
Just fyi, I can look up information for each fold.it puzzle in the PDB using basic bioinformatics skills.
But - nobody in my group uses the information to "duplicate the structure of proteins" as xiando accuses. You're making me laugh though.
In fact, I have not even looked up the last few puzzles, so if you are thinking we are doing well because of the PDB, then think again. Xiando - I suggest you spend your energy on your own folding rather than making silly accusations.
when I was a member of a now-defunct high-ranking group that as each new puzzle came out, there was an automated message in group chat referencing what the protein was and it's identifier in the protein database.
Since I have no idea where this protein database is or how to use it's information, it didn't mean anything to me, but it obviously was important enough to make it known to the group.
I would think if we're working on a protein with a known and documented structure, that would certainly aid those who had the means to use the information, and would indeed give an unfair advantage.
Yes, it was me who sent out the automated messages you are referring to. I did it on an experimental basis to see if it was useful to anyone (since I wasn't smart enough to figure it out myself). After a while, I stopped. People like to read it and see more about the protein, but nobody figured out a magic way to make it that useful in folding.
So if you are paranoid, or if it makes you feel better, our folding results for the recent puzzles have nothing to do with the PDB since I haven't been looking them up.
Pleas don't fall back on a pysch game gla, I would hope you're above that argumentation tactic. I like you and respect you, but really…I have a minor in psychology and know all too well that particular "game"….
The bottom line is that you are pulling data the developer obviously sought to obfuscate (or they would have provided it)
and it does give an unfair advantage to those who have easy access to it. Regardless of the claims that (we don't use it) heard it too many times and yet have seen too much traffic re: did you see this or that in the PDB on such and such puzzle from members of your group and others.
Just as monitoring other player's score to the decimal point, although I personally just find that particular issue annoying and invasive similarly to those certain players who attempt to id people by backtracking their IP addresses and cross correlating with things they say in chat to information in internet searches.
I salute the work your group has been doing. I think it's great that you're doing so well, and I've said so on many occasions. Nor did I accuse you or your people specifically, but I do read the chat and I do know what goes on. In fact, your dialogue with Brick above confirmed it.
You can make it a personal issue if you like…My premise is that groups and individuals with programming skill are harvesting (imo) purposely obfuscated information (or PDB ids would still be made public in puzzle titles) unavailable to normal players, and this represents an unbalanced arena. If the goal is to keep more players and teach, then it shoiuld be easily available to even a grade school child, rather than programmers only. And my accusation, as you describe it, is without doubt valid with some players having the skills necessary to exploit the files and PDB. I could pull conversation logs if it were a legal battle, but I find that to be silly when it is self-evident from reading chat.
respectfully,
xiando/anjen
LOL xiando, no psych game going on here! I never took psychology, and I don't know anything about it. So if I am using some kind of strategy there, it is totally accidental.
Anyway, you seem to be awfully tense regarding this issue, I'm sorry if it bothers you. I don't think I am helping matters here any longer, so I will take my leave from this thread.
not tense. but then if you'd read my original post you'd see that. I strive in general to make this a more hospitable and *equal environment for all users, rather than for a subset of users with specific skill in programming or other technical areas. as should be clear from the overwhelming bulk of my commentary, my willingness to help new users, and my suggestions, a significant number of which have been incorporated into the game due to their sound value and usefulness by ALL of the volunteers that participate in this venutre.
Thank you for your concern for my mental health though. Maybe you can delete your score monitor if you really care…admittedly that surprised me when I found out you were doing that. Altruistic or advantageous FTW?…hmm.
