Ok I'm going to say it out loud. design puzzle play

Started by spmm

infjamc Lv 1

  1. While I'm not against the intention behind all-hands puzzles, let's not forget the important observation from the Foldit developers on this type of puzzle: In practice, people tend to converge toward evolving the top-scoring solution rather than exploring.

==> So, as a compromise, I would be in favor of a two-round system where the top 5-10 unique solutions from Round 1 (where "unique" is defined as two solutions having an RMSD above an arbitrary cutoff) are automatically provided as templates for Round 2.
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  1. Regarding the idea of individuals not getting credit for evolving: my concern is that this could decrease the incentive for evolver play. But the following system might work:

a) Record the score gain achieved by each player above a certain threshold (say, the media score of the puzzle).
b) The player on each team that contributed the most to evolver player will receive the same number of individual evolver points as the team global points for this puzzle. Everyone else on the team would receive a reduced amount that is scaled down proportionally.

For example: A team is placed 2nd in a puzzle and receives 75 points. The median score of the puzzle is 10000 points, and the team's top evolver solution scores 11000. Suppose that one player contributed to 400 points of the 1000-point score gain, while three other players contributed to 300, 200, and 100 each. The four players will receive 75, 57 (56.25 rounded up), 38 (37.5 rounded up), and 19 (18.75 rounded up) points, respectively, in evolver global points.

Now, this system does have the downside of giving too much credit for the lower score ranges, where evolution is easier. A possible fix might be reweighting the score gains by the range where the score gain has occurred. For a more complicated example:

(Starting configuration = 8000, median score = 10000, team evolver score = 11000)

Player A: 8000 -> 10400 (note that only the last 400 points would count)
Player B: 10400 -> 10450
Player C: 10450 -> 10500
Player D: 10500 -> 10600
Player B: 10600 -> 10850
Player C: 10850 -> 11000

Now suppose that relative contribution is reweighted based on the function (credit) = 2 * (location_of_score_gain - median_score) / (team_evolver_score - median_score). Integrating this function yields x^2/1000, which is then applied for each segment of score gain

Player A: x = 0 to x = 400, relative contribution = 160
Player B: x = 400 to x = 450 and x = 600 to x = 850: relative contribution = 405
Player C: x = 450 to x = 500 and x = 850 to x = 1000: relative contribution = 325
Player D: x = 500 to x = 600: relative contribution = 110

So Player B actually gets the most credit despite contributing to a smaller number of points from an absolute standpoint… because most of the points occurred in a higher range, which is more difficult. Now Player B gets the full 75 global evolver points for his/her evolver play, while Players A, C, and D receive 30, 61, and 21 points, respectively. (As you can see, the main downside of this system is sheer complexity, as the scoring function would have to be integrated for each team.)

auntdeen Lv 1

@spmm - I have no problem conversing with rational people, but am very tired of some false perceptions that are repeated over & over again, in particular when a certain person deteriorates into slinging garbage along with them.

We do not have any one technique - or even a series of them - or even super secret special recipes. We all have different methods of approaching evo. Mine, for instance, is to look at whose solo it is. Pletsch & keypad, for instance, use few scripts - Rav3n does most of his hand work only in the beginning (and then allows his excellent scripts to work for him). When I see a solo from any of these - I do the opposite of what I know they have focused on. Other people on the team are excellent at hand banding techniques to knock the protein loose and pliable again. Barb is incredible at selecting the perfect script at the perfect time to get the most out of a solution. But our goal is always to try to knock a protein loose enough to be able to make significant improvements - even at the end of every game, we always have at least one person working on a "hail mary".

This would appear to be what the devs are looking for with evolver play.

The other thing we do is clearly label our uploads - so that when someone is looking for a shared solo or evo to download, they are aware of how many hands have already worked on any given solution, and what's been done to it, or whether it's a new high scoring solo.

That's it - other than the energy that we bring to it. I've been working for 2 days now in one client on Pletsch's original upload, and have managed to improve it by almost 130 points by using both hand & script.

Because we do so much with evo, I would not be happy with a change in evo scoring for individuals for a couple of reasons - we use it to train newer or newly returned folders, and it does give a decent sense of accomplishment to them while teaching/refreshing folding skills.

Most experienced folders agree that it is silly to have the default players page open with evolvers - I would like to see the page open with soloists! But I see no harm when looking at the top evolvers list where all top teams are represented. I can't imagine that it "hurts" anyone to have an evolver number - but do see that it can help a tenuous or inexperienced or returning folder get a feel for working on a good solution, and a sense of accomplishment that can give them the self-confidence to turn their skills to solo.

Thunk was a top evo person for many months before he finally started feeling confident enough to really work on his solos - we actually had to kick him through his first high scoring solo. He is placing often in top ten now, and recently got his Master Soloist. Without the competitive feedback that came by being the #1 evolver for a time, it is very possible that foldit would have lost him.

Most competent soloists know that the number that counts is solo - certainly we have excellent soloists who do not play on a team so they obviously don't care. I see no real reason to change evolver scoring, and some harm that could come from doing that, from my perspective.

Your last question does make me smile, about CASP. Our team was started by Pletsch & Renton as a big, open team for all folders as an opportunity for everyone to work together for CASP 9… Please read our page for the details.

Considering all the flack we've had about being open and being large, I wonder if anyone would want to attempt the same thing again…

Tyggy Too Lv 1

Okay…last time for my input…talked to death and I really don't care…

BUT

AD has EVOLVED into a powerful group that folds particularly well. Think of us as a really good multicellular organism in a sea of colonial organisms. We use our knowledge across puzzles, and are constantly coming up with new processes that benefit foldit, the team, and the solutions. And IF a good percentage of the team gallops merrily down the paths of high scoring towards a single pinnacle, doesn't that leave every other pinnacle for other individuals and teams to climb?

And if you want to whine about my evo-ing….here is my secret technique…three hours solid of hand work using a technique Dat showed me a year ago: Move something, wiggle, shake, repeat.

Submitted for your approval by a top predator,
Tyg

beta_helix Staff Lv 1

Seth and I will be in chat for 1 hour tomorrow starting at 13:00 PDT (20:00 GMT) to discuss potential solutions to the design problem spmm original brought up with this feedback.
We will be happy to discuss Evolvers as well.

We will post a transcript of the chat in the forum.

B_2 Lv 1

How about having these chats when the majority of the US population is NOT at work?

B_2 Lv 1

Except your team is NOT open, and you do NOT share outside your team. Lots of grand words, but the actions do not hold up.

Having 15 AD at the top of the evolver list is a very strong dis-incentive for others to evolve. There is simply no point to it, and is truly a waste of time.

B_2 Lv 1

I think is the best proposal so far to change the Evolver scoring.

The idea that the evolved solution is a group solution is key, the group should get the points.

  • Score the best solo solutions as now for the Soloist rankings

  • Score the best over-all team score - which may be a solo solution or an evolved solution - for the Team Rankings.

  • Score the best team evolved solutions for Team Evolver standings - each team gets one entry in the table

This may have just been a re-statement of spmm's post, but it really makes sense.

I'm not sure about the the top five solutions after the puzzle closes point. Are you proposing that we get to work on them as "All Hands" solutions? Perhaps those chosen would not be the top scoring solutions, bus chosen by the project as the most promising. But - isn't that what happens now when puzzles are re-released with a number of starting points based on previous versions of the puzzle?

beta_helix Staff Lv 1

1pm tomorrow is the soonest Seth and I are free to chat.
We do not have a large staff with Foldit customer service available 24/7, that is why every single developer chat has been during UW work hours Seattle time.

If you are not able to take a lunch break at that time, please find a teammate that IS free to represent your views.

We hope that this chat will be as useful as the previous chat on cloned accounts, which resulted in the addition of Tracks.

Please leave the status of this Feedback as "Noted" since we have noted the problem that has been brought up.
As you pointed out in this feedback: http://fold.it/portal/node/987997#comment-12371 you can easily find this feedback by selecting "All". Thank you.

B_2 Lv 1

So in this case, only the unemployed, self-employed, and kiddies get to participate.

IRC is not allowed on most real-life enterprise networks for very good reasons, so lunch-break is not an option, and I would not want to impose on the other team members to try to get my ideas across.

And yes, I was very artfully blocked from the last chat discussion for the same reason.