1412: Sketchbook Puzzle: Unsolved Denovo Freestyle 105

Closed since over 8 years ago

Summary

• Created: August 02, 2017
• Expires: August 09, 2017 at 23:00 UTC
• Max points: 100

Description

Focus on your early game as we revisit puzzle 1381: Unsolved De-novo Freestyle 105. In this Sketchbook puzzle, you have 250 moves at your disposal. Once you use them up, you can reset and try something else!

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Top groups

• 1. Anthropic Dreams 100 pts. 9,474
• 2. Gargleblasters 76 pts. 9,435
• 3. Beta Folders 56 pts. 9,420
• 4. Void Crushers 41 pts. 9,290
• 5. Marvin's bunch 29 pts. 9,282
• 6. Go Science 20 pts. 9,270
• 7. Deleted group pts. 9,160
• 8. Contenders 9 pts. 9,104
• 9. Russian team 6 pts. 8,969
• 10. L'Alliance Francophone 4 pts. 8,903

Top soloists

• 1. eusair 100 pts. 9,508
• 2. markm457 97 pts. 9,457
• 3. tokens 94 pts. 9,443
• 4. Enzyme 91 pts. 9,435
• 5. Susume 88 pts. 9,379
• 6. LociOiling 85 pts. 9,330
• 7. Galaxie 82 pts. 9,305
• 8. kabubi 79 pts. 9,290
• 9. fiendish_ghoul 77 pts. 9,290
• 10. frood66 74 pts. 9,282

Comments

[jeff101]

Somehow, despite the many possible structures for a given protein sequence, nature quickly folds a protein into a specific stable structure. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levinthal%27s_paradox for example.

In this sketchbook type of puzzle, I can see a player taking his/her best solution and trying to fold it again with a smaller number of moves. Then the player can use the extra moves remaining to find an even better solution. In effect, this will encourage players to explore the folding pathway and find the most direct ways to reach the best folds. The most efficient series of moves for the best solutions would make interesting movies that could help train human folders and might even resemble the true folding pathways used in nature. They would also make useful training sets for artificial intelligence and neural networks. See https://fold.it/portal/node/2002918 for example.

[alcor29]

Thank you for posting this Jeff. It makes me feel somewhat less ignorant. Though not remotely connected to biochemistry I have now long wondered if all the grinding done for points creates a false gamification artifact as opposed to a greater scientific validation. The path that is described by Levinthal coincides with my speculation that a string of amino acids may fold unto itself in accordance with the first likely encounters of the intermolecular forces. This has meant for me, that when we concentrate on grinding points for the game competition by ensuring that we are not in a "local" minima, we may actually be kicking the fold out of the local minima which the protein "prefers" in the real world of its milieu. I wonder how many other folders have felt the same thing.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levinthal%27s_paradox )

[frood66]

Since (it would appear) we are going to be spending more time working out how many 'moves' we have made (some of those that count appearing apocryphal at best) Would it be unfair to ask the science behind this latest puzzle type. So far as I can see at the moment, it looks like a game for game's sake.Or as many B4 have described similar ideas….another 'Lab Rat Job'

Sorry if that sounds harsh - but it's only history.

[frood66]

I think, with respect, u r missing an important point. Many hand folders work at low cI and Low wiggle power for a long time B4 they 'move up'. They do all this in 'blind belief' that they are creating a good fold. Doing this strategy takes a great deal of moves. So - with respect - I think u totally misunderstand.

[gitwut]

It would also be more helpful to have the filter show something like "Moves made: 0, moves remaining: 250" or similar, since I imagine different puzzles might vary the number of maximum moves allowed. It would help to see that reflected by the filter.

I frequently run multiple poses on each denovo and monomer puzzle. I had four different track poses (much friendlier than reset, btw) for denovo 1405. Are all of them analyzed? Why can't the same data be extracted from the early folds of that?

Will all tracks of Sketchbook puzzles analyzed? If so, I'd prefer to use them instead of reset.

"With that in mind, we're interested in a puzzle that refocuses folding effort on the early-game, rewarding you for trying something new instead of drilling on an existing fold."

I'm not sure how allowing us to reset a puzzle and starting over with limited moves is a "reward". We've always had the ability to reset a puzzle.

[Mike Cassidy]

I think it would be good to have Blue Print for these types of puzzles.

[gitwut]

I created one pose, no scripts, saved my work and then tried to open shared folders. Client locked up. These puzzles are entirely inefficient effort-wise and time-wise due to the far too limited move constraints and buggy client. I could have accomplished the same thing handfolding only in 1/4 of the time if I weren't so worried about minimizing my moves. The way I approach denovos (minus the move constraint), is already the same, but with better results.

I thought it only fair to at least try this puzzle type and, sad to say, most all of my concerns appear accurate. This puzzle type, and the client, needs serious re-consideration and re-working. Until then, I won't waste any more time on them.

[eusair]

all this folding pathways stuff does not require 'moves' in order to be studied. assuming pathways can be studied at all (see below) in foldit, it could just as easily, no, more easily be studied using a simple timer.

keep in mind the fact that nature doesn't have bands or cuts or idealize structure buttons; nor the hands and mind of a human player/chaperone. foldit is not a folding simulator. protein structures are not arrived at in a way that at all resembles that in nature.

[eusair]

aye, its merely a game within a game. let's find out who wants to spend the most time getting the most out of each and every move. atm that means before you shake, add bands to every aa you want to end up a particular way. same thing with every wiggle. believe me, i've tried it. i've spent 20-30 mins preparing for a single shake. i press the Z button enough as it is. i don't see myself carrying on in that fashion for no reason, or for what seems to me atm to be unfounded and ill-conceived reasons.

[Aubade01]

It appears obvious that all players of this Sketchbook puzzle are not on an equal footing. Players should start equal since moves are limited. Since this puzzle is based on the old puzzle 1381: Unsolved De-novo Freestyle 105, players who have the top fold pose stored on their computers, or are members of a group who have that top pose, have the advantage. Players who did not discover the top pose in 1381 or are trying it for the first time cannot possible score well in 250 moves. If Foldit is really serious about Sketchbooks starting as old De-novo, then a link to the top pose image should be available. We should all know at the start how the coils and sheets are aligned.

Aubade00 / 01