Closed since over 8 years ago
Intermediate Overall PredictionFocus on your early game as we revisit puzzle 1381: Unsolved De-novo Freestyle 105. In this Sketchbook puzzle, you have 250 moves at your disposal. Once you use them up, you can reset and try something else!
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100 pts.
9,474
Frankly, I think the Sketch puzzle category should be lumped in with the Beginner puzzles or with the Tutorials. I don't think they should contribute to Global points as they lack any obvious scientific contribution. My opinion, of course, so I'm open to discussion to the contrary.
I suspect the puzzle type may have something to do with wanting to make Foldit available on touch devices? If that is the case, why not just say so to begin with?
I'm finding that even informational recipes like print protein 2.5 and TvdL Show Worst 1.1.3 cost a couple of moves. (I'm looking into that.)
Also as previously noted, opening a cutpoint is one move, and closing it again is another.
Bands don't cost anything.
Wiggle costs one move, but you can wiggle for as many iterations as you like. And you can fiddle with the CI while you wiggle.
Moving a cut section costs a move. Every single little adjustment costs another move. It would be nice if placing the move tool on a section cost one move, but allowed you to move it until you're satisfied and clicked on another section.
We are actually running this puzzle specifically for scientific purposes. From analysis we have done on previous puzzles, we are finding that most of the topological changes and valuable work is done in the earlier stages of folding. With that in mind, we're interested in a puzzle that refocuses folding effort on the early-game, rewarding you for trying something new instead of drilling on an existing fold.
Thanks for the feedback!
We understand there are a lot of kinks to iron out with what is and isn't counted as a move, and we'll review any tools that players highlight as being potential issues.
For the scripts - we'll look into those.
For cuts - are you still seeing the cut insert and delete being 1 move each? We had released a fix for this in devprev, but perhaps it was undone.
For bands - we thought it appropriate that they cost nothing.
For wiggle - we are looking into changing this to 1 move = 1 iteration, but we want to make sure that the GUI has the capability of only running 1 iteration of wiggle before we can do this. The CI fiddling might be an issue, too.
For the move tool - that is a great idea. As long as you're just doing a string of rotations/moves, I can agree that you shouldn't be penalized repeatedly.
jflat06 is correct, closing a cut no longer costs a move. Opening a cut is still counted as a move.
jflat06 is correct, closing a cut no longer costs a move. Opening a cut is still counted as a move.
Recipes like print protein 2.5 and TvdL Show Worst 1.1.3 use behavior.SetFiltersDisabled, which costs a move each time it's called.
Toggling filters manually does not have the same effect.
I've opened a feedback:
This would have been useful information in the earlier puzzle descriptions. My earlier understanding was that the emphasis was on economy of moves and maximizing score, not diversity of poses.
If you've found that the valuable work is done early, I'm guessing that it can't be extracted from previous puzzles? If not, why not change the way all puzzles are currently stored so that the data can be extracted from all forthcoming puzzles? That would seem more useful than creating a whole new category of puzzle.
Is each solution sent back for each Puzzle Reset, or is all the information stored and sent back when the puzzle closes? I ask because the client is extremely unstable when the scoreboard gets out of sync.
"We are actually running this puzzle specifically for scientific purposes. From analysis we have done on previous puzzles, we are finding that most of the topological changes and valuable work is done in the earlier stages of folding. With that in mind, we're interested in a puzzle that refocuses folding effort on the early-game, rewarding you for trying something new instead of drilling on an existing fold."
if i am missing something here, please enlighten me. but atm, this all seems rather straightforward in my mind given the statement above…
i think you are going about this the wrong way; you're method is not going to produce the desired result. by allowing a limited number of moves, you are encouraging players to become more efficient with each move. every time they discover an improvement, if they feel so inclined, they can simply undo and find a more efficient way of achieving those previously discovered gains. the result is thus more time spent to go the same distance and the highest scores will be had by the most dedicated/efficient players, not the most skilled or visionary folders. additionally, you are unnecessarily opening a whole new set of problems by trying to define what is and is not a move.
there is a far simpler and better way to do this. if you are so very interested in the early stages of folding, then limit the puzzle to early game play only, such as with a time limit. give players ~2 hrs max to do as much as they can however they want to do it. the only thing that resets the timer is resetting the puzzle.
My impression is that when a player plays online, Foldit regularly sends that player's latest (not necessarily best-scoring) solution to the server, so there is a history of moves for each player's solutions stored on the server. This should include for each player many solutions that are not their best-scoring solution, solutions that in fact look quite different from their best-scoring solution.
Despite this, I think when you analyze the results, you tend to only use the best solo and best evo for each player and the best solution from each group. If a player has explored a variety of structures, the lower-scoring ones are all ignored during analysis. This seems wasteful to me, especially with this new kind of puzzle. Do you plan to change your analysis procedure to make better use of all the data this new type of puzzle will create?
